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	<title>Comments on: A Weird Feminist Critique Of Porn For Women</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/2008/06/16/a-weird-feminist-critique-of-porn-for-women/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/2008/06/16/a-weird-feminist-critique-of-porn-for-women/</link>
	<description>Ms Naughty looks at porn for women, the adult industry and sex in general.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Q</title>
		<link>http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/2008/06/16/a-weird-feminist-critique-of-porn-for-women/#comment-121696</link>
		<dc:creator>Q</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/?p=817#comment-121696</guid>
		<description>My impression is this:
If male centric pornography revolves around the pursuits of men on what is thought to be attractive and desirable of their female counterparts, often incorporating domination and bordering (sometimes even being) oppression, than I would assume, the only counterbalance is to do the same with men.

An interesting experiment is to see what kind of pornography properly objectifies men in a pleasurable way for women. At the same time, a wonder is as to what is the capacity that women have for dominating men in order to achieve sexual pleasure.

Often times in male centric pornography, women especially have to make excessive sounds as they are "pleasured" by men, often allowing multiple orifices to male initiated pleasure (anally, vaginally and orally).

I wonder what would be the reaction of women desiring that men be the receivers of female initiated pleasure (anally, penilly-sp? and orally.

To have a woman as the stoic initiator of pleasure upon a man--to me--is something rare and unseen in most adult material.
Usually adult non-BDSM heterosexual film has the habit of portraying overly stoic men perpetrating sex upon overly emotional women who moan and whine for more male initiated pleasure.

If anyone wants balance, I'd think a new tradition of the opposite has to be made, i.e. overly stoic women perpetrating sex upon overly emotional men who moan and whine for more female initiated pleasure.

On the note of rape, because quite often society mores allow men and women to perpetuate physical inequality, women tend to easily be the victims of males.
I wonder about the instances of stronger, larger, or aggressive women preying upon men who are weaker, smaller or submissive. People say there are physiological differences that make it "impossible," but where are the studies of victimized males that support this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My impression is this:<br />
If male centric pornography revolves around the pursuits of men on what is thought to be attractive and desirable of their female counterparts, often incorporating domination and bordering (sometimes even being) oppression, than I would assume, the only counterbalance is to do the same with men.</p>
<p>An interesting experiment is to see what kind of pornography properly objectifies men in a pleasurable way for women. At the same time, a wonder is as to what is the capacity that women have for dominating men in order to achieve sexual pleasure.</p>
<p>Often times in male centric pornography, women especially have to make excessive sounds as they are &#8220;pleasured&#8221; by men, often allowing multiple orifices to male initiated pleasure (anally, vaginally and orally).</p>
<p>I wonder what would be the reaction of women desiring that men be the receivers of female initiated pleasure (anally, penilly-sp? and orally.</p>
<p>To have a woman as the stoic initiator of pleasure upon a man&#8211;to me&#8211;is something rare and unseen in most adult material.<br />
Usually adult non-BDSM heterosexual film has the habit of portraying overly stoic men perpetrating sex upon overly emotional women who moan and whine for more male initiated pleasure.</p>
<p>If anyone wants balance, I&#8217;d think a new tradition of the opposite has to be made, i.e. overly stoic women perpetrating sex upon overly emotional men who moan and whine for more female initiated pleasure.</p>
<p>On the note of rape, because quite often society mores allow men and women to perpetuate physical inequality, women tend to easily be the victims of males.<br />
I wonder about the instances of stronger, larger, or aggressive women preying upon men who are weaker, smaller or submissive. People say there are physiological differences that make it &#8220;impossible,&#8221; but where are the studies of victimized males that support this?</p>
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		<title>By: lindabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/2008/06/16/a-weird-feminist-critique-of-porn-for-women/#comment-118286</link>
		<dc:creator>lindabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 05:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.msnaughty.com/blog/?p=817#comment-118286</guid>
		<description>I agree with much of what you say here.  One thing about the "rape fantasy" issue is that the phrasing really bother me, and is indicative of our cultural misunderstanding of rape.  Rape is an act of violence, where sex is the weapon.  It is the absolute absence of consent.  If a &lt;i&gt;woman&lt;/i&gt; has what we call a "rape fantasy", she desires it-rape fantasy for women is an oxymoron.  A woman can't desire rape because as soon as it's desired, it's no longer rape.  So that phrasing just has to go.  It's a dominance fantasy that isn't the same as BDSM. The fact that it's called a "rape fantasy" is proof that it's ultimately designed for men, because for the male viewer, it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a rape fantasy, and something I find very problematic.

Also...

&lt;i&gt;No doubt I could sit down and produce a adult site that ticked all the boxes when it comes to critical feminism but I’m not sure it would be very sexy, or that it would make much money.&lt;/i&gt;

I'm not so sure about this...it might not at first, but desires come from what already exists (i.e. without knowing that soda exists or what it is like, you don't really crave it), and more about what exists in proliferation, so without a wide exposure of non-sexist porn in sex culture, we really have no way of knowing whether such porn would make money.  And with greater exposure, people may find they like it more.  

I think that we are very conditioned by tropes of what's "sexy" and reproducing the typical tropes in porn limits sexuality rather than expands it, and I think this is especially true with regards to women.  Women clearly crave sexual material, and what we've been given for so long was very male-centric.  Obviously this has been changing, and FTG is part of that, but porn is still overwhelmingly male-centered.  I think this limits male sexual desire too by being given the same-old thing and always in terms of their expectations.  It means that what is considered erotic is limited for them too. Just because porn is non-sexist doesn't mean that it's only "for" women...anyway, the vast majority of porn out there is for men and nearly all free porn online is for men too.  When that's all we've been exposed to, and we (women) like sexual material, so I think our desires too have been shaped by the already existing tropes and assumptions in porn, just like men are.  

But without more exposure of non-sexist material in mainstream contexts, people probably won't seek it out and then it's doomed to not be profitable.  I don't think anyone woke up and said "I'd love to cum on a bleach-blond woman's face"...and I never thought I'd like gay male porn until I actually watched it and it's pretty great.  Then I found out a lot of women like it because it eroticizes the male body (which isn't done in mainstream porn) without having to deal with the idealized porny women.  I'd have to agree.  Another thing I discovered accidentally that I like is guy/girl strap-on sex, for several reasons, including male vulnerability and female control.  Both experiences were accidental, and I would have never thought of it otherwise.  

I apologize I'm soapboxing on your blog, but I am so passionate about how to influence the content of mainstream porn.  I don't think it as a medium is "bad" but it's content at present is so problematic, and while it will never be 100% non-sexist, a different landscape of representations can make what we currently think of as "sexist" less so since they become just one of many sexual representations available.  But the immediate profitability of certain porn isn't a reason to not pursue it for ethical reasons...and I have to think doing women's/feminist porn has to be a mixture of profit and ethics.  

I also like to think that I am both a theory junkie, an ardent feminist, porn-industry critical, and a fan of non-sexist sexual material and I think they're absolutely compatible!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with much of what you say here.  One thing about the &#8220;rape fantasy&#8221; issue is that the phrasing really bother me, and is indicative of our cultural misunderstanding of rape.  Rape is an act of violence, where sex is the weapon.  It is the absolute absence of consent.  If a <i>woman</i> has what we call a &#8220;rape fantasy&#8221;, she desires it-rape fantasy for women is an oxymoron.  A woman can&#8217;t desire rape because as soon as it&#8217;s desired, it&#8217;s no longer rape.  So that phrasing just has to go.  It&#8217;s a dominance fantasy that isn&#8217;t the same as BDSM. The fact that it&#8217;s called a &#8220;rape fantasy&#8221; is proof that it&#8217;s ultimately designed for men, because for the male viewer, it <i>is</i> a rape fantasy, and something I find very problematic.</p>
<p>Also&#8230;</p>
<p><i>No doubt I could sit down and produce a adult site that ticked all the boxes when it comes to critical feminism but I’m not sure it would be very sexy, or that it would make much money.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure about this&#8230;it might not at first, but desires come from what already exists (i.e. without knowing that soda exists or what it is like, you don&#8217;t really crave it), and more about what exists in proliferation, so without a wide exposure of non-sexist porn in sex culture, we really have no way of knowing whether such porn would make money.  And with greater exposure, people may find they like it more.  </p>
<p>I think that we are very conditioned by tropes of what&#8217;s &#8220;sexy&#8221; and reproducing the typical tropes in porn limits sexuality rather than expands it, and I think this is especially true with regards to women.  Women clearly crave sexual material, and what we&#8217;ve been given for so long was very male-centric.  Obviously this has been changing, and FTG is part of that, but porn is still overwhelmingly male-centered.  I think this limits male sexual desire too by being given the same-old thing and always in terms of their expectations.  It means that what is considered erotic is limited for them too. Just because porn is non-sexist doesn&#8217;t mean that it&#8217;s only &#8220;for&#8221; women&#8230;anyway, the vast majority of porn out there is for men and nearly all free porn online is for men too.  When that&#8217;s all we&#8217;ve been exposed to, and we (women) like sexual material, so I think our desires too have been shaped by the already existing tropes and assumptions in porn, just like men are.  </p>
<p>But without more exposure of non-sexist material in mainstream contexts, people probably won&#8217;t seek it out and then it&#8217;s doomed to not be profitable.  I don&#8217;t think anyone woke up and said &#8220;I&#8217;d love to cum on a bleach-blond woman&#8217;s face&#8221;&#8230;and I never thought I&#8217;d like gay male porn until I actually watched it and it&#8217;s pretty great.  Then I found out a lot of women like it because it eroticizes the male body (which isn&#8217;t done in mainstream porn) without having to deal with the idealized porny women.  I&#8217;d have to agree.  Another thing I discovered accidentally that I like is guy/girl strap-on sex, for several reasons, including male vulnerability and female control.  Both experiences were accidental, and I would have never thought of it otherwise.  </p>
<p>I apologize I&#8217;m soapboxing on your blog, but I am so passionate about how to influence the content of mainstream porn.  I don&#8217;t think it as a medium is &#8220;bad&#8221; but it&#8217;s content at present is so problematic, and while it will never be 100% non-sexist, a different landscape of representations can make what we currently think of as &#8220;sexist&#8221; less so since they become just one of many sexual representations available.  But the immediate profitability of certain porn isn&#8217;t a reason to not pursue it for ethical reasons&#8230;and I have to think doing women&#8217;s/feminist porn has to be a mixture of profit and ethics.  </p>
<p>I also like to think that I am both a theory junkie, an ardent feminist, porn-industry critical, and a fan of non-sexist sexual material and I think they&#8217;re absolutely compatible!</p>
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